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Quick couple of questions about FOBT's

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#1 dangerousdave

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 06:49 pm

My missus who is a manager in a bookmakers can't answer me this, shame on her.

 

When playing on FOBT's some games are advertised as random and some are advertised as compensated.

 

It is the compensated I am asking about.

 

Firstly is the game compensated against the entire machine or just that game specifically, so for instance if someone blew £1k in roulette (random) does that make the machine "wan't to pay out"

 

Secondly if it is only compensated for that specific game is it just that game on the one machine or is it across the network?

 

Thanks in advance

 

DD



#2 prizeguy2005

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 07:31 pm

meant to be random so in theory if someone blew or won 1k on the machine it wouldn't effect your chances of success although my personal experience of them is the roulette has a very compensated feel to it either cant hit a thing or the machine always finds a number for you if wants to pay



#3 nails

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 07:53 pm

what prizeguy feels and what is real are two very VERY different answers.

 

FOBT roulette is 100%, you have to remember that at 98.xx % you cannot win. the odds are of course less than 50% if you bet red of black, and the more you stake you more you potentially win of lose. generally speaking, when you press start a winning number is picked via a satellite link and that is the number the ball will land on. this is why some spins look the same.

 

Random randoms generally some from the Astra games. this is why a full screen of jackpots and wilds never looks the same. easch charachter or reel symbol is a random result from within a random win or lose.

 

Compensated random (typically a barcrest game) is whereby a large win or sequence of wins influences the next XXX amount of plays until its in a good mood again. its still counted as random, its just the odds have significantly increased.

 

 

if you want me to explain further i can.



#4 stevedude2

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 09:14 am

Winning or losing money on a compensated game which is part of a compendium usually just affects that particular game on the cabinet, and only locally to that cabinet.

 

This would definitely be the case for an FOBT in an LBO.  If losing money on one game made another more generous, neither would return the stated RTP%.

 

 

However, there are examples of pub or arcade compendiums where certain slots (all by the same company) share the same compensator.  This is usually to limit exposure on individual sites.


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#5 fuzion

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 11:04 am

meant to be random so in theory if someone blew or won 1k on the machine it wouldn't effect your chances of success although my personal experience of them is the roulette has a very compensated feel to it either cant hit a thing or the machine always finds a number for you if wants to pay

Yeah, I totally agree about the fobts roulette, After watching a friend of mine a few years back, I'd say it played more like a compensated random machine.    

 

J


// stumblin' in the neon groves


#6 stevedude2

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 01:08 pm

I can feel a can of worms being opened here ;)

 

Ten pages in the thread by bedtime tonight :)


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#7 niallquinn

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 03:13 pm

Well we did in the good old days on FF Steve.  Alex would be arguing the random/compensated route while a programmer ie DT or Gary would explain how the RNG compensator actually worked.  And Trouty, Pandy, and Stu Campbell would chip in for good measure.

 

:)

 

NQ.



#8 edwardb

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 03:27 pm

Hi,

 

So as you may know, I've done a number of FOBT games. I can share some info..

 

FOBTs that are advertised as random ARE truly random. The RNG that many people use is this one: http://www.math.sci....mat/MT/emt.htmland the seeding is done variously, but I chose to use the number of microseconds since the PC started. As this will vary every game load, it is random enough so as not to be predictable.

 

All UK FOBT games must be certified by a Government approved test company (also known as a "test lab") and we pay quite a lot for them to do that. They're all PHD level mathematicians. They get the entire source code stack, RNG (which is a DLL, and never changes, anyway), a set of simulation results that they can then verify against their own tests, and a fully compiled and working game version for both PC and on-cabinet. They have a full cabinet and back-office system to replicate the live use of a game.

 

After about a month, assuming no issues are found, then the test lab issue a set of signed certificates which allow the game to be made available to the public. Those certificates can be inspected at any time by the GC and have to be kept on record, and under lock and key.

 

Any update that affects the mathematical parts of the game require the game to be re-tested.

 

Any company that does not comply with the above rules, firstly won't get a game live because the platform operators simply won't accept an uncertified game, and at each company (developer and platform) one person is a named licence holder with the GC and has ultimate sign off (and therefore, ultimate PERSONAL responsibility) on the game to be put live. People don't disobey the rules as you are personally liable - you can end up in prison.

 

BTW, you can do a compensated FOBT game but they've never really been very popular. Project tried a few, I think.

 

Cheers



#9 fuzion

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 03:47 pm

I think the one a friend of mine used to play a few years back was called 'Lucky 8', maybe that is compensated to a certain degree, I know it had some kind of cash pot feature (lucky 8).

 

J


// stumblin' in the neon groves


#10 edwardb

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 09:32 am

If the game is advertised as compensated, then you can compensate just as an AWP would. If it's random, it's random. By law. 

I forgot to mention that when a game goes on a terminal, it is "fingerprinted" - an SHA1 checksum that is checked on startup. If a file is corrupt (or has been changed by an external source, which is technically very hard as the OS on terminals are locked down) then the entire machine will not boot into the kernel, and no games can be launched.

 

Believe me when I say there are more security and integrity checks in FOBTs than you would believe. There is no room, technically or legally, for anything untoward to occur.



#11 thecodfather

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 11:00 am

Interesting read Edward, never ever played the FOBT but interesting to read what you have written on this and other threads.

 

Thanks man


poker

 


#12 dannyb1981

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 12:45 pm

If the game is advertised as compensated, then you can compensate just as an AWP would. If it's random, it's random. By law. 

I forgot to mention that when a game goes on a terminal, it is "fingerprinted" - an SHA1 checksum that is checked on startup. If a file is corrupt (or has been changed by an external source, which is technically very hard as the OS on terminals are locked down) then the entire machine will not boot into the kernel, and no games can be launched.

 

Believe me when I say there are more security and integrity checks in FOBTs than you would believe. There is no room, technically or legally, for anything untoward to occur.

 

Very interesting, I don't know the in's and out's but with the jailbreaking of consoles the hacker is looking at ways to get into the kernel stack to launch code and that certain components can show there weakness when allocating to the kernel.

 

I assume the terminals just use PC componants that could be manipulated in the same way if a certain thing was found to have a weak link (processor, graphics card etc) then the hacker would have a way to allocate source code.   



#13 unclechicken

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 02:12 am

Never played one, never will.

The house always wins in the end.



#14 edwardb

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 12:22 pm

Never played one, never will.

The house always wins in the end.

 

Be the house :)

 

 

 

Very interesting, I don't know the in's and out's but with the jailbreaking of consoles the hacker is looking at ways to get into the kernel stack to launch code and that certain components can show there weakness when allocating to the kernel.

 

I assume the terminals just use PC componants that could be manipulated in the same way if a certain thing was found to have a weak link (processor, graphics card etc) then the hacker would have a way to allocate source code.   

 

Terminals use largely off the shelf components in some cases, but some operators use completely bespoke PC hardware designed and manufactured. Frankly, there are so many bigger targets than FOBTs which are physical machines, maintained and checked by staff daily, have remote monitoring and financial information collection and live reporting......it's not worth doing.

 

At the Network Operations Center for a major FOBT operator, they have multiple 50" screens up on the wall showing live data about what's being played, where, and a set of alarms - if a pattern emerges of a game paying out too much, or too little, it is flagged, investigated and (if necessary) the game removed.







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