24 replies to this topic

[hurricane]

Barcrest have released a new version of Stars and Stripes (B4), which apparently has a 'Hot Spins' feature which has a 130% payout... really? can such a payout exsist?

Link: http://www.barcrestg...om/game/?id=426

[cardie]

Its all bollocks, like Astra saying 'this machine is random' even though it has a payout percentage to meet AND theres no such thing as a computer that can generate true random figures. It maybe 130% payout but how much will it take on the normal reels to make it go onto the feature?

[markleshark]

Its all bollocks, like Astra saying 'this machine is random' even though it has a payout percentage to meet AND theres no such thing as a computer that can generate true random figures. It maybe 130% payout but how much will it take on the normal reels to make it go onto the feature?

ok here is the scam,,,,, + how they can BEND the truth, the randoms really are random, with a piece of bullshit called a 'RNG' random number generator,, here's how it manages to manipulate itself to meed the required payout percentage.... suppose each real has 1000 numbers divided between the symbols, the jackpot symbol is only assigned 1 number, lets say 573 ok, the same could be said for a wild symbol maybe 871, now the smallest winning symbol eg cherry may contain as many nominated numbers as 100. now then,, if the machine is drifting wildly off coarse with the percentage even though it is PURELY RANDOM (LMFAO) it simply switches program,, which in effect allocates more RANDOM numbers to higher payout symbols + less to lowers,, just like putting your car in reverse HAHA then the desired effect is reached + YES because it is purely random it is very likely to make up the drift with many smaller wins than actually dropping the jackpot,, eg a 50 pound win becomes multiplied by 5 for a 250 jackpot. due to the CALCULATED ODDS for this purely random machine you are more likely to win the lottery than the jackpot!!!!

Edited by markleshark, 19 December 2010 - 08:37 AM.

[markleshark]

Surely a 130% payout on a single feature is meaningless when taken into context of an overall machine % payout - mind you it will attract players I have
no doubt

bj

yes BJ, i am sure there will be plenty of muppets who after a very quick calculation will actually believe the machine will payout more than it takes!!!

[nails]

they are indeed random, but within their parameters.

the best way to look at it is the roulette odds, totally random - but not in your favor. cover every number and get a random result and get 98.xx % payback.

[nails]

Nowt to do with this new machine,but this gets my back up everytime i think about it.These astras are so called random,yet they have a dip switch to put the machine onto soft profile.When these astras are on soft profile they will not give a full screen jackpot,or a jackpot any other way.That should not be allowed as it must be messing with the rng to stop it picking a jckpot combination,Theres a slotto multi player were i play and thats never payed a jp in the 3 years it's been in there.It has the winderella game on it,and when the pot below the top one reaches £500 the machine does an automatic ram clear sending the pot back to £250,now if that aint a piss take i don't know what is.I don't play b3 machines at all,but it pisses me off when you see people pumping it,when it just pays a £50 win here and there.

my machine did a treble on soft profile. whilst this is not the intention of soft profile, it does still have the ability to empty the hoppers. i really dot think that a large company would make an option for the pots to auto reset to minimum - once it reached a maximum??, ther reverse is true however, you can set certain pots to maximum. club cops and robbers is a classic example.

[Guitar]

They ARE Random, you just have to understand how its controlled.

For a start no manufacturter would put a machine out there that could pay out more than it took over a period of time (although technicallty its possible, just very very very unlikely) BUT it is random, each consecutive spin has no relevance to the previous spin.

Ok simple example number 1...

take these 10 numbers in a table

0) £0
1) £0
2) £0
3) £0
4) £0
5) £0
6) £0
7) £0
8) £0
9) £7

The random number genertaor picks a number between 0 and 9, each number has an even chance of being picked. Over time, because each number has a completely even chance of being selected it should work out to approximately 70%. If its £1 per spin it will take £10 to draw each number, one of those numbers pays back £7, so £10 in and £7 out = 70% payout. BUT you still cant predict whether the RNG will pick a 6 or a 1 or a 9 next etc.

Obviously it all works out over time, much the same way as roulette does, 37 numbers 18 red, 18 black and a single green. If you were betting 50/50 on say red/black, high/low, odd/even, eventually the casino makes its money on the single green coming in as the odds are you will win just as many times as you will lose on a true 50/50.

Now consider this table...

0) £0
1) £0
2) £0
3) £0
4) £0
5) £0
6) £0
7) £1
8) £2
9) £4

This time it would still cost £10 to have 10 spins. Each number has an even chance of being picked from the RNG. If you win each number you will win 1+2+4 so £7 for each £10 on average. BUT its a softer profile, 3 of the numbers will now offer a win instead of the previous game which only paid a win for 1 number. But its still 70% payout and it is still impossible to predict the next number the RNG will pick.

Obviously the real machines use a LOT more than 10 numbers to pick from up to 512k in some cases I believe, so the tables are much much bigger and its only the upper numbers that pay a prize. My examples above do have a slight discrepancy in that the first machine would be a £7 JP and the second one would be a £4 JP. In the real machines they all have £500 as the top win but some tables will pay £500 for the top five numbers and pay fewer smaller wins, and other machines would only pay £500 for the very top number but pay many more smaller wins. I just oversimplified the example to make a point. Also these machines tend to pay out 92% but thats an awkward number to work with so 70% was again just an example. The mathematics however remain constant.

But it still stands that the machine is unpredictable, ergo random, paying to a percentage (over time), and can have a selectable hard/soft profile.

With regards the 130% feature, this is quite easy to explain.

When you get the free spins feature it just uses a different table which happens to have 130% payout average.
Something like this...

0) £0
1) £0
2) £0
3) £0
4) £0
5) £0
6) £0
7) £3
8) £5
9) £5

again hugely oversimplified, but at £1 per spin, if you won every number once, you would win £13 for £10 staked, ergo 130%.

All it means is that the table used in "regular" play will pay a lower percentage average to compensate for the 130% in the free spins feature.

There is a lot of maths involved but its fairly straight forward. A lot of the time the mathematics arent as exact as you would think either, a machine of 92% payout is more likely to be worked out as paying slightly over that amount just they fiddle the maths to get as close to 92% as possible. So probably something like 92.0014525. With all the different bonus features and multiple lines it is really quite difficult to work it out to an exact 92.0000% average.

There is also MANY ways to do the randomization. There is the example I give above where you would pick the win from a table and then display that win in whatever way neccessary. Or of course you could actually randomize 5 reels, by varying the number of symbols on the reel in total and the amount of each symbol on the reel you can work out the percentage for the game that way.

The point being it doesn't matter which method you use, it is perfectly possible and fair (with an 8% overall advantage to the casino/arcade/pub/club/motorway services) to have a random machine with controllable percentage, profile, and even a feature with 130% payout. They arent lying, it really will pay 130%, probably a fraction more, as discussed above, but its still only paying ~92% overall.

What this also shows is a bit of a lesson in life, when you see statistics in newspapers, you should always look into how they were gathered and the context in which they are being displayed. Its possible to make pretty much any statistic look favorable in one way or another, and there are a lot of highly paid mathematicians doing just that for various groups ranging from advertisers (8 out of 10 people recommend it) to goverments (global warming stats from the UEA a few years back).

Edited by Guitar, 19 December 2010 - 03:52 PM.

[Guitar]

my machine did a treble on soft profile. whilst this is not the intention of soft profile, it does still have the ability to empty the hoppers. i really dot think that a large company would make an option for the pots to auto reset to minimum - once it reached a maximum??, ther reverse is true however, you can set certain pots to maximum. club cops and robbers is a classic example.

It could be a rotating cashpot, it could be programmed to just loop round and round so when it gets to £500 it resets to £250 on the next increment. With the percentage worked out with a constanly changing pot, or it could be a bug. Worse bugs have happened.

[Chopaholic]

Thanks for the explanation Guitar, saves me the trouble

I'm sure I've given that same basic explanation on here more than once in the past......

People just need to understand the difference between a 'controlled' percentage (which AWPs have) and a mathematically determined average percentage over time based on the nature of randomness (S16/B3s or whatever they're called now).

AWPs will actively seek out their target, which is there the concept of forcing comes in for example, eventually the machine will drop a JP/mega streak because it 'knows' what its target percentage is and won't allow itself to fall too far behind, sooner or later it'll just chuck in an invincible board to make up percentage.

Random machines have no memory, like a roulette wheel, it has no idea what the previous spins were, and it has no idea what future spins it's planning for, it just picks a random number out of its potential results and shows you it on the screen.

People often have trouble getting the hang of how random chance works on something as basic as RED/BLACK on a roulette wheel.

If a roulette wheel spins:

RED
RED
RED
RED

A lot of people think BLACK is a more likely result on the next spin, or that BLACK is 'due', but it's not, it's exactly the same probability as on the first spin. The roulette wheel could spin in RED a hundred times on the trot, the chance of BLACK on the next spin is still exactly 1 in 2 (well, less the house number).

Where probability comes in is that it's massively unlikely you'll get one hundred REDs on the trot, (there are proper calculations for this sort of thing), but that does not influence in any way the next spin of the wheel.

So in short, random machines ARE random and they CAN reach a certain percentage payout over time but this is based on a HUGE number of plays and can vary MASSIVELY over the short and medium term, you're talking tens if not hundreds of thousands of spins for the percentage to be reached, and remember it's not a TARGET percentage, it's just what random probability says will happen over a very long period of time.

[markleshark]

this is quite an amusing thread now, no digs intened at all lads ok,, lets simplify this even further as yes BULLSHIT BAFFLES BRAINS + again i am referring to the manu,s with their claims!!! ok we have the main percentage which in my example is 70, however the "ALL NEW" super "TOP BOARD BULLSHIT" percentage is REALLY 130 PERCENT!!!!! REALLY??????? well 70 + 130 = 200, the same as the 100 x 2 for both examples,,,,,,,, so therefore it is obvious, the machine makes no profit whatsoever!!!!!! right?? DEAD WRONG!!!!! they are very keen to advertise that the super bullshit feature actually leaves THEM OUT OF POCKET!!!!!! how nice 'eh? so how can they justufy it? very simple infact.

the main game is 1 pound per play BUT it makes a contribution 2 the super feature as well, just like a pot
lets say 10p, heres the clever bit, when the top feature actually hits the average PERFECTLY it would payout 13 pounds instead of a tenner,, but surely we are not fooled????? we have already paid for that pleasure!!!!! right??? DEAD RIGHT!!!! easy when we stand back + take a real look at the bigger picture!!!

[ady]

they are indeed random, but within their parameters.

the best way to look at it is the roulette odds, totally random - but not in your favor. cover every number and get a random result and get 98.xx % payback.

Not totally correct where machines are involved Nails....

As said already the RNG just reduces the amount of losing spins to achieve the said pecentage, whereas with what you quote are odds mate.

[Guitar]

Not totally correct where machines are involved Nails....

As said already the RNG just reduces the amount of losing spins to achieve the said pecentage, whereas with what you quote are odds mate.

There are various methods of doing it, sec 16 was a proper fixed odds machine overall, more resembling a lottery machine (hence the Sec16 workaround).

Remember that Sec16 had the seperate RNG. B3 is allowed to be compensated, a lot of companies just use the RNG style so they can legally put "This Machine Is Random" in the splash screen. I dont know if they still have an RNG or whether they just use psuedo random.

Also someone above mentioned that you can't get true random from a computer, this was true until about a month ago, scientists have now created a true random computer using a quantum physics method, it was on Reddit a few weeks back. I'll try and find the link. Probably very expensive atm so wont be in machines any time soon but relevant none the less.

[nails]

Not totally correct where machines are involved Nails....

As said already the RNG just reduces the amount of losing spins to achieve the said pecentage, whereas with what you quote are odds mate.

you can buy 2 different types of random fruit machines, barcrests that are fixed random, and the likes of slotto that are random random. guitars example earlier is a classic barcrest style, whereas slotto was like (i live this one) bingo balls in a bag, loser loser loser 50p loser etc etc and then pulls a 500.

[jim2311]

Random Number Generators

My first computer back in the 1980s was a Commodore Vic 20. If this was switched on and asked to pick 6 random numbers from 1 to 100 then switched off and on again, and asked again to pick 6 random numbers from 1 to 100 it would pick the same 6 numbers, so what seemed random could be predicted.
I had to take this into consideration when making my own programs. When I created a fruit machine using RNGs for everything, I kept them running in the background to eliminate learning what would happen next.

For example…when gambling from 50p to £1 the RNG would continue to pick either 1 or 2, ie, 1,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,1,1,2, until the enter key was pressed, and if the last number generated was a 1 you won the gamble. In effect a 50/50 chance. However, when gambling from £1 to £3 the RNG changed to 3 numbers, ie, 2,2,1,3,1,3,2,3,1,1, changing the odds to 2/1 against you.
On another feature I changed the RNG to 5 numbers, but again you only won if you hit the enter key after number 1 had been selected, so odds against 4/1.

Conclusion... just stating that something is random is meaningless, and does not increase the chances of winning.

[hurricane]

Well the elvis in my local, payed out 4JP's in one week 2 of which happend the same day along with 3 £400 wins.
So on one day it payed out £1400, in the space of a few hours.

[Guitar]

Well the elvis in my local, payed out 4JP's in one week 2 of which happend the same day along with 3 £400 wins.
So on one day it payed out £1400, in the space of a few hours.

It also has probably taken £2000 in a single day before.