9 replies to this topic

[Bencrest]

Club treasurer came up to dad and I tonight and said that on the 1st Feb this year, he will have to pay 20% VAT on machine takings, therefore his supplier has offered £500 jackpot machines @ 25/50/100p stake, which apparently they won't pay tax on?

 

Just wondering if any of you are aware of this, I'm way out of the loop when it comes to such things these days, but I'm sure some of you operator types will have been preparing for this?

 

What can we expect - will they be B3 like machines (so say 88>92% 5 reel video slots), or will they be like the old 'lottery' ticket fruit machines? There's bound to be a loophole that is bound to be exploited

 

[note - I'm still not playing, but do have an interest in the industry - dad will be playing and I'm his advisor! ]

Edited by Bencrest, 24 January 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[vectra666]

I read somewhere (mr p's forums) its only 5% on £5jp machines but they'll lower, yes lower % even further to a measly 70% making the machines even tighter for us player makes money for the government, but hardly entertaining for the player but its been like that for years meaning arcades getting even quieter so they'll shut, meaning government putting more tax on them and so on.

[fruitsnappa]

It'll be something similar to this http://www.amgleisur...ness-lotto.html

 

Similar idea to the pull tab lotto's but electronic.

[nails]

basically AMLD or amusement machine license duty @ around £200 per month has been scrapped in favour of MGD or machine gross duty.

 

the single site operator would probably welcome such a new ruling, quite simply if he doesnt make any money then he doesnt pay any tax ( a bit like how much a taxi driver has to declare). the larger operator say ladbrokes or nobles will be hit hard however, that 200 per month on a FOBT could now equate to 20% of £20,000k per month per machine, or 205 of a `few thousand` on the b3's

 

basically the high street arcade can now have as many machines as he likes without the penalty of AMLD. i would foresee less and less cat.d £5 jackpots.

 

as for your club, i was under the impression that and machine to be exempt has to be a category b3a which is lottery.

 

http://www.gamblingc...ces_do_i_n.aspx

[Bencrest]

basically AMLD or amusement machine license duty @ around £200 per month has been scrapped in favour of MGD or machine gross duty.

 

the single site operator would probably welcome such a new ruling, quite simply if he doesnt make any money then he doesnt pay any tax ( a bit like how much a taxi driver has to declare). the larger operator say ladbrokes or nobles will be hit hard however, that 200 per month on a FOBT could now equate to 20% of £20,000k per month per machine, or 205 of a `few thousand` on the b3's

 

basically the high street arcade can now have as many machines as he likes without the penalty of AMLD. i would foresee less and less cat.d £5 jackpots.

 

as for your club, i was under the impression that and machine to be exempt has to be a category b3a which is lottery.

 

http://www.gamblingc...ces_do_i_n.aspx

 

 

Cheers for all that

 

Yeah, I was guessing it might be like the lottery machines several clubs had around here before, couldn't remember the category though

 

What can we expect - will they be B3 like machines (so say 88>92% 5 reel video slots), or will they be like the old 'lottery' ticket fruit machines? There's bound to be a loophole that is bound to be exploited

 

[note - I'm still not playing, but do have an interest in the industry - dad will be playing and I'm his advisor! ]

 

It'll be something similar to this http://www.amgleisur...ness-lotto.html

 

Similar idea to the pull tab lotto's but electronic.

 

Yup, used to play a couple of these locally

 

I read somewhere (mr p's forums) its only 5% on £5jp machines but they'll lower, yes lower % even further to a measly 70% making the machines even tighter for us player makes money for the government, but hardly entertaining for the player but its been like that for years meaning arcades getting even quieter so they'll shut, meaning government putting more tax on them and so on.

 

... but the minimum has been 70% for years? No doubt most £5 hi-techs in seaside resorts have been 70% for ages. Can't remember if the ones in our arcade were 70% or 78%, but knowing how tight the site operator was, I'd guess 70%

 

Lo-techs are often set a little higher to compensate for the lack of 'amusement', however it's totally up to the operator

[russ8s]

I was of the understanding if its a machine sited in a private members club, as in the B3 catergory, then no tax will be dues on profits whatsoever, since the profits are deemed to be for the benefit of the club.

 

(though it has to be questioned if all clubs set up as "private members clubs" are actually non for profit and run soley for the benefit of the members, but I think that its just a given that they are)

Edited by russ8s, 25 January 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[russ8s]

scrapped

Edited by russ8s, 25 January 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Bencrest]

I was of the understanding if its a machine sited in a private members club, as in the B3 catergory, then no tax will be dues on profits whatsoever, since the profits are deemed to be for the benefit of the club.

 

(though it has to be questioned if all clubs set up as "private members clubs" are actually non for profit and run soley for the benefit of the members, but I think that its just a given that they are)

 

Ours is pretty good for not profiting - take the weekend bingo for example. I don't play it any more (haven't for ages), but it was bang on for payouts - they used to read out the amount and value of tickets sold, and the club profit before the game started. It wasn't unusual (for example, this happened on Sunday) for them to take NO profit. For example, the call would normally go '500 sold, £500 pound, none spoiled, prize money of £500 so NIL to the club'. I think they most they've ever taken is about £8 on sales of £400. Compare that to a bingo club and it's a stunning payback percentage, and when I used to play it I was probably evens over the course of the year, if not in profit. A full 'book' with all numbers was £3 for 5 games and a 'flyer', and the 'flyer' game at the end was normally £15 a line, £25 for 2 lines and £60 for the full house (or along those lines). 

 

Membership fees go towards entertainments e.t.c. and the drinks are cheap

 

The clubbers though, to be honest, were normally set to 72%, which is kinda crappy

Edited by Bencrest, 25 January 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[russ8s]

Yeah well setting the club machines to 72% does not really make sense to me in a non for profit club, unless the club relies on the machines take to subsidise the running of the club.

 

Most no for profit clubs try make a margin on events, this goes into a general pool to fund club expenses. Running bingo like that I can only assume it attracts in the members and money is made on the bar sales?

 

But thats not really what I mean about non for profit clubs, not being for the benefit for members.

 

The issue is with clubs that are run by individuals, they take a wage out of the club, now thats perfectly fine, but essentaily the club exsists because of the individuals benefit rather than the interests of the member, normally what is run by an commitee, decisions going to a vote etc.

 

Now as I take it your club is a members club run by the members, the grey area operators can be snooker halls or over recent years poker clubs... set up as members clubs they can offer unlimited prize gaming like poker, without obtaining a gaming permit like a casino would have. Those running can be paid from the club funds, run expenses they have through the club books, mean while its all claimed to be a club ran for the benefit of the members. I know a few that have come and gone over the years, the tell tale signs are when the individual who runs the club dissappears since its not making enoguh to draw a wage and the club fold, if it was a true members club the members would keep it running... without drawing wages, it would be run by the commitee.

 

Essentailly I could set up a members only club, sign up members, it could consist of one small room, lets say call it the scrabble club, you have to sign up and become a member with 24 hours notice. The main attraction would be a scrabble table, but it just so happens I have a bank of B3 slots in the same room, now only members can come in, but they would really only come to play the slots, then any profits derived from the machine would not be tax liable, pay myself a wage out of the profits for running the refeshments, get a vehicle to do club errands and so on.... heck I could even do all this while I unable to work and claim incapacity benefits since I only work for the commitee of the club as a part time hobby and it just so happens the other half is another person on the commitee, the secretary also taking a wage...

[stanmarsh14]

Yeah well setting the club machines to 72% does not really make sense to me in a non for profit club, unless the club relies on the machines take to subsidise the running of the club.

 

Most no for profit clubs try make a margin on events, this goes into a general pool to fund club expenses. Running bingo like that I can only assume it attracts in the members and money is made on the bar sales?

 

But thats not really what I mean about non for profit clubs, not being for the benefit for members.

 

The issue is with clubs that are run by individuals, they take a wage out of the club, now thats perfectly fine, but essentaily the club exsists because of the individuals benefit rather than the interests of the member, normally what is run by an commitee, decisions going to a vote etc.

 

Now as I take it your club is a members club run by the members, the grey area operators can be snooker halls or over recent years poker clubs... set up as members clubs they can offer unlimited prize gaming like poker, without obtaining a gaming permit like a casino would have. Those running can be paid from the club funds, run expenses they have through the club books, mean while its all claimed to be a club ran for the benefit of the members. I know a few that have come and gone over the years, the tell tale signs are when the individual who runs the club dissappears since its not making enoguh to draw a wage and the club fold, if it was a true members club the members would keep it running... without drawing wages, it would be run by the commitee.

 

Essentailly I could set up a members only club, sign up members, it could consist of one small room, lets say call it the scrabble club, you have to sign up and become a member with 24 hours notice. The main attraction would be a scrabble table, but it just so happens I have a bank of B3 slots in the same room, now only members can come in, but they would really only come to play the slots, then any profits derived from the machine would not be tax liable, pay myself a wage out of the profits for running the refeshments, get a vehicle to do club errands and so on.... heck I could even do all this while I unable to work and claim incapacity benefits since I only work for the commitee of the club as a part time hobby and it just so happens the other half is another person on the commitee, the secretary also taking a wage...

 

Yep I often see this, and especially so with the non CIU affiliated places, and you just know there is some dodgy shit going on.

 

http://www.wmciu.org.uk/

Edited by stanmarsh14, 25 January 2013 - 02:43 AM.