19 replies to this topic

[Reg]

So we all know when you buy second hand, if it fails you're screwed - but are we now buying machines that like replicants only have limited lifespans ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...z4AAOSwzaJX7BkL

 

Just look at the title here...

 

DEAL OR NO DEAL POWERPLAY £100 jackpot NOTE RECYCLER FITTED 2 Year Dongle

 

...is this the beginning of the end for the second hand market on newer tech machines ?

[barcrest junky]

It would seem so, unless the dongle can be cracked.  Disappointing, but predictable. 

 

And the seller cannot spell commission, which in itself is unimportant except when  it occurs in an advert as a hyperlink provided to the GC. 

[aaamusements]

I imagine someone will crack the security at some point. Otherwise a lot more machines will necessarily end up as worthless landfill.

[Matty.N]

It's only Bellfruit who did it for a trial run, during that time the likes of Betcom/Blueprint/24/7 Gaming/GSquared (whatever they were going as) & Reflex had a massive surge in sales due to the cost of the dongles. Gsquared even ended up moving from Scorpion 5/6 to Pluto6, if this was due to their market dominance & Bellfruits jealousy or the fact it's not dongle based is anyone's guess.

 

Pretty sure Bellfruit have knocked it on the head now, as they realised how stupid it was to abuse their position in the AWP market like that, Only really saw Gamestec sticking with them & a good amount Wetherspoons as of late have changed suppliers from Gamestec.

 

Seen a few of these crop up now with expired dongles, but they're still asking silly money (£250 - £300+), a shame considering to the public they are effectively just a giant paperweight.

[FruitBash]

I imagine someone will crack the security at some point. Otherwise a lot more machines will necessarily end up as worthless landfill.

 

I have cracked these.

 

Problem is, reel based machines don't interest me at all.

 

I did it just to see if it could be done - it can.

 

Very easy to just add 20 years onto the length of time remaining.

[FruitBash]

If anyone is interested, these initially were time limited to just number of days. Operators became concerned that they were paying for time limited licences even when the machine was off their site being fixed for problems, so bell fruit changed the way the dongle worked so that it was just "time machine is working" that was taken into account.

 

Didn't make it any different to hack though. |Removing the dongle from the resin was the most difficult part.

I would also add that after seeing if it could be done, I destroyed everything to do with the hack.

[vectra666]

So does anybody actually know what happens when the time expires, I mean will the machine stop working? Isn't is just a case of clearing the ram and resetting the time?
To me I can't see anything happening when it expires as it's a reel based machine not a video like the £500's
Take our zip program winrar it was a 30day trial after that you're supposed to upgrade, which I haven't yet that still works spot on! So maybe you can't upgrade after that expiry date!
What happens to the machine if there's no dongle inserted?

[fuzion]

I imagine the software will be tailored to check the dongle and check the date etc, the dongle may even contact to check correct time/date etc.  If expired then the machine will fail to boot.

 

J

[renoufchr]

As Fuzion said once dongle is installed on the machine cant change time/date without the machine erroring and once expired cant play machine in live mode not sure about demo as havent let one expire yet as you can transfer remaining time to the next dongle

 

If i remeber correctly 

 

First Dongle= 1 Year

Second Dongle= 2 Years

Third Dongle = 3 Years

Fourth Dongle - Unlimited

 

So essently second hand market isnt dead it may be done on machine age not how many dongles the said machine has had though

 

 

Machine wont boot without a dongle in live mode and not tested it in demo

Edited by renoufchr, 28 June 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[ricardo de ponsa]

This is the same way of thinking in many fields of electronics. When I worked for Telecoms the systems I fitted had site specific codes which could be updated, at cost. These were useless if sold on, making them landfill!!!

[NickYerPesos]

machines will run fine in demo mode once dongle expires. 

all is not lost though. Second hand market just will be missing the bellfruits.

Deal or no deal "maXimum" has been copied by reflex "The Heist".. as an example. Youll be able to find the same game, but just with a diffferent theme.

[Reg]

machines will run fine in demo mode once dongle expires. 

all is not lost though. Second hand market just will be missing the bellfruits.

Deal or no deal "maXimum" has been copied by reflex "The Heist".. as an example. Youll be able to find the same game, but just with a diffferent theme.

 

That is so true at I guess for the players, not to hear "It's not going well" or "DOND" with different set of samples makes all the difference, especially if they've done a fun skin on the game.

 

Did BFM do many with the dongle or was it a one off, oh look we've shot ourselves in the head moment ?

[spa]

It's what SG Gaming are going through right now. Changed the ways on the video units. Getting replaced by Blueprint.

 

Hadn't been in a services for some time but was there a few weeks back. There used to be walls of T7 and T8s. Not a single 1 now!

[FruitBash]

It's what SG Gaming are going through right now. Changed the ways on the video units. Getting replaced by Blueprint.

 

Hadn't been in a services for some time but was there a few weeks back. There used to be walls of T7 and T8s. Not a single 1 now!

 

It does make you wonder where all those T7's are going!

[NickYerPesos]

Nope, all bellfruits that are Scorp 6 (later than deal or no deal Big One) now have a dongle. And companies pay the ridiculous fees.

But as said before, nearly every bell fruit game has been copied by reflex, g-squared and blueprint, with little twists etc.
I used to hate the other manufacturers.. but now I find bellfruit hideous and the other manufacturers, not as bad.

[banditboy2006]

 

It does make you wonder where all those T7's are going!

 

the service stations are replacing them with storms with a mixature of there content and content from t7's as them machines are licence free and the only time a enginner need to visit is when a note mech jams up as the storm cabs are on rent the contents included in the rental so it make sense

 

with the auroua 100s there lincence free

[banditboy2006]

and with the t7 and t8 going server based they would be worth much to sell as your buying a machine with just games as they wont work as the rngs arnt on the machine as these call for a result

 

as the server based t7s and t8s use video bet as there back end not Barcrest and it connects to this on boot so it i cannot connect to video bet it wont load

Edited by banditboy2006, 04 July 2017 - 08:08 AM.

[fuzion]

Can't the Triple 7 cabs be run in demo mode though?   It's not ideal as demo mode probably plays differently, possibly enhanced, prize wise.

 

J

[edwardb]

So, to give you a bit of industry info on this - the long and short of it is this:

 

We used to design and manufacture new AWPs, and give 25 of them (free of charge) to pub companies to test. Great. That's a ~£80k investment once you factor in salaries, overheads and of course, building and transporting the machines.

 

If your game took enough money, the pub company would buy between 400 and 2000 machines. 

 

Now suppose your machine didn't do very well, which could be for any number of reasons - not always because it's a bad game. We had pubs with test machines in catch fire (closed = no money!), machines get smashed up, stolen (we once got called by the police to a "colourful object in a farmers field"), covered in beer or fag ash etc.....

 

You don't get a second chance. If your machine fails test, that's it. Done. Someone else's game goes on test and the whole world moves on.

Prior to the 2005 Gambling Act, you weren't allowed to profit share, so the pub company took all the profits from the machine - you as the manufacturer got £0. So you've burnt £80k and got nothing but a pile of machines, often with bits missing (or smashed) and no prospect of any sales of this game.

 

How many of you think this is a great business model? That only has to happen a few times (and remember ~1 in 4 machines is a "hit") and you're in financial dire straits. I lost count the number of times Maygay, JPM and others cut jobs, did 2 day weeks in the factory, etc, to keep the lights on, hoping to have another hit game. Bell Fruit in the mid 90s almost went pop I don't know how many times - only their Dutch games kept them afloat.

 

OK. So on to dongles. 

 

Dongles smooth that curve (read: cliff face) of revenue when a game is launched. Instead of selling machines, they are now leased or given, with an agreement to share the profits. To control the use of the machine, a dongle obviously stops anyone operating the machine - and making money - when the manufacturer isn't getting a cut.

 

That is a much fairer way for the people who actually take the risk and spend the money to develop the game.

 

I agree for the 2nd hand "home" market they are a problem, but so many jobs were lost and companies hitting the wall because of the insane business model that had developed over the decades.

 

Imagine going to your local Ford garage, being given a car to test drive - crashing it, writing it off and then just returning it and say "sorry mate, don't really like it". Then come back the next day and take another car out. Repeat that again and again. That's how the business was - totally crazy.

 

These days with server-based gaming developers can monitor the revenue and get their %. Much better.

 

So, all I will say is, try and see why it happened. Maybe someone will crack/make a new dongle that has unlimited time.

 

Don't get me started on arcade owners. They buy 1 machine and then ring up 5 years later asking for a software update....errr...NO. 

 

Tsk!!

[Reg]

Just a note of thanks for that insight.

 

It's always good to hear things from the other side of the fence in this case.  I had no idea about the test market and what manafactures had to go through.

I think this explains a little more of when they get a hit, it's do it again, again and again.  Makes sense.