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#21 stevedude2

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:28 PM

So if you win the JPP on a high stake for say 3 stars, you not only win the 3-star pot but also the ones underneath? I can't believe that would be legal. As far as I'm aware it all has to be linear; you cannot entice people to play at higher stakes with higher payouts and so on. The low stake player is never going to get a 95% payout because they are paying money into something that they cannot win. A linear approach would mean that if you double your stake you either win twice as much or you win the same amount twice as often.

It's amazing how much a difference it makes the closer you get to 100% on these games. I mean if you have a game that has an average return of 95% and you change it to 96%, you're giving up 20% of the game's profit at 95%, and that's a lot when you think about it. But then another way of looking at it would be to say that the player's money will last 25% longer - £1000 in at 95% to lose £50, or £1250 in at 96% to lose £50. The player gets a better game and more value for money. It's not like they're tying a machine up in an arcade - loads of people can play an online game at the same time.

92% at those low stakes when you're not hitting the JPP is too low as far as I'm concerned. You might as well go down to the arcades at those prices.

Good thread though :)

Edited by stevedude2, 15 March 2012 - 08:36 PM.

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#22 Chopaholic

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:37 PM

Cheers for the reply Steve, I'm trying to get my head round how the Jackpot Party progressives work so all input is appreciated :)

The 'present' awards are the same on the JPP feature whatever the stake, and the final award from whatever star level you're on when you hit a COLLECT is the same on any stake.

The Jackpot Party T&Cs state that the chance of triggering the JPP feature is related to stake, and this is where I'm trying to work out if low stakes players are basically getting the shaft or not.

http://www.jackpotpa...iveDetails.aspx

Let's say someone has a bankroll of £1000 and they're playing at £10 per spin, and they play for an hour.

Someone else has a bankroll of £100 and they play £1 per spin, they also play for the SAME hour.

If the relationship between stake and JPP trigger chance is linear (and I can't get a straight answer off the Jackpot Party site or from one of their 'hosts' in the realtime chat, so we'll have to assume), then our £10 per spin player is 10X more likely to trigger the JPP on any given spin. Yes he may well lose 10X as much, but with the JPP values being fixed across all stakes, he stands a better chance of effectively 'buying' the JPP.

My basic thought here is that if you've got, for the sake of argument, fifty concurrent low stakes players on the site, and fifty concurrent high stakes players on the site, then the high stakes players are just going to continually cream off the JPPs, even if they're all 0 or 1 star JPPs and effectively worthless to them, it does mean that the low stakes players will hardly ever get a look in.

Certainly I've had some extended sessions at Jackpot Party, and you get a pop-up window every time someone wins a progressive (even the 0 star one), if there are high stakes players on, you'll just see their name come up time and time again. Some of them are happy to chat in the realtime chat window, there's a guy who was playing £15 per spin for an evening and he hit it about five times, I was talking to him again a couple of nights ago and he said he'd stopped playing at high stakes 'cause even though he got the JPP all the time £50-£200 wins were neither here nor there at such big stakes, plus he was losing a fortune due to the high stakes.

Because all the games are split 92% base game and 3% progressives, and because the vast majority of progressive wins are 0 or 1 star, and because the high stakes players are continually nailing them - it seems to me that the low stakes players (like me!) are effectively giving that 3% away and would be better off just playing elsewhere where the 95% payout is fixed for the game YOU'RE playing at the time, rather than chucking 3% at progressives that you'll hardly ever get to win.

TBH I'm starting to think that I was just INCREDIBLY lucky to hit the JPP three times in my first few sessions and make the profit I did, and that I'd be best off just calling it a day at the site.

If you think my reasoning or maths is wonky please just say so, I won't be offended :)

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#23 knicol56

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:47 PM

Ive played thousands of pounds on online slots mainly progressive jackpots and always 'bet max' to have that chance of the Jackpot. I concluded that unless you win a Jackpot you will lose long term. In a demo mode draw a simple table 1-25 spins and just write in a L for a loss or win below the stake, W for a win over the stake and B for a bonus game. At the end of each 25 spins add up the number of L, W and B and repeat over say 100 or more spins. You will always find theres more L in each 25 spin column.

When your in a chat room moaning about losing money or machine not paying remember your not necessarily speaking to a real playing player when they say something like 'I've just started playing and won' just after you mention your loss.

#24 stevedude2

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:54 PM

Your maths sounds fine to me and you appear to have arrived at many of the same conclusions that I did late last year when I spent a few days playing on the site at work. The games themselves appear to have awards that are linear to the stake and the percentage remains constant throughout. But the means of funding the JPP is compulsory and unfortunately it looks like it is biased towards high stakes players.

As you rightly say, I'd also rather play a game at 95% all of the time, or be able to opt out of the JPP and have the 3% go onto the game. You really do feel the suction at 92%.

This is why I don't like playing games with progressive jackpots, such as Alice's Wonderland and Viz - you can't be sure how much of your stake is funding the pot and it's such a rare event that the short-term player gets an inferior experience. If I log on in the evening and play Leprechaun's Luck I'm not playing for the progressive jackpot, I want a decent game for an hour, which most of the time I won't get. It's this short-term skew that makes me wish the progressive jackpot wasn't there.

There's a fine line between shaving enough money to feed the pot and make it look attractive to win, and killing the rest of the game. These sort of jackpots are an integral part of Jackpot Party's philosophy but I don't like the idea that big money is unattainable unless you increase your stakes.

It sounds like you've been lucky over the last few weeks and as we both know, when playing games of chance with a negative expected return, luck like yours does not last :)

Edited by stevedude2, 15 March 2012 - 09:55 PM.

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#25 fruitman69

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:54 PM

Cheers for the reply Steve, I'm trying to get my head round how the Jackpot Party progressives work so all input is appreciated :)

The 'present' awards are the same on the JPP feature whatever the stake, and the final award from whatever star level you're on when you hit a COLLECT is the same on any stake.

The Jackpot Party T&Cs state that the chance of triggering the JPP feature is related to stake, and this is where I'm trying to work out if low stakes players are basically getting the shaft or not.

http://www.jackpotpa...iveDetails.aspx

Let's say someone has a bankroll of £1000 and they're playing at £10 per spin, and they play for an hour.

Someone else has a bankroll of £100 and they play £1 per spin, they also play for the SAME hour.

If the relationship between stake and JPP trigger chance is linear (and I can't get a straight answer off the Jackpot Party site or from one of their 'hosts' in the realtime chat, so we'll have to assume), then our £10 per spin player is 10X more likely to trigger the JPP on any given spin. Yes he may well lose 10X as much, but with the JPP values being fixed across all stakes, he stands a better chance of effectively 'buying' the JPP.

My basic thought here is that if you've got, for the sake of argument, fifty concurrent low stakes players on the site, and fifty concurrent high stakes players on the site, then the high stakes players are just going to continually cream off the JPPs, even if they're all 0 or 1 star JPPs and effectively worthless to them, it does mean that the low stakes players will hardly ever get a look in.

Certainly I've had some extended sessions at Jackpot Party, and you get a pop-up window every time someone wins a progressive (even the 0 star one), if there are high stakes players on, you'll just see their name come up time and time again. Some of them are happy to chat in the realtime chat window, there's a guy who was playing £15 per spin for an evening and he hit it about five times, I was talking to him again a couple of nights ago and he said he'd stopped playing at high stakes 'cause even though he got the JPP all the time £50-£200 wins were neither here nor there at such big stakes, plus he was losing a fortune due to the high stakes.

Because all the games are split 92% base game and 3% progressives, and because the vast majority of progressive wins are 0 or 1 star, and because the high stakes players are continually nailing them - it seems to me that the low stakes players (like me!) are effectively giving that 3% away and would be better off just playing elsewhere where the 95% payout is fixed for the game YOU'RE playing at the time, rather than chucking 3% at progressives that you'll hardly ever get to win.

TBH I'm starting to think that I was just INCREDIBLY lucky to hit the JPP three times in my first few sessions and make the profit I did, and that I'd be best off just calling it a day at the site.

If you think my reasoning or maths is wonky please just say so, I won't be offended :)




Ok It will be something like this

I bet it will all be mathmatically relative:-

Lets just say for example the bloke who had a few at £15 a spin was up against a 750 spins ave chance of hitting a progressive which if he hit 5 in an eve is realistic. eg ( 3750 spins )

Someone on say 50p stake would only hit one 1 in 30 times less that than ( on ave of course! ) so their ave to hit one progressive is 1 in 22,500 spins so very believeable that they wouldnt get a trigger.

Someone on say 25p stake would be 1 in 60 times = 45,000 to 1 as each spin will still have that chance to hit its purely a case of having to be very lucky indeed at lower stakes.

As for your comment about the 3% yes your right low stakes players will technically be losing the 3% unless they hit at least 1 progressive, and depending how it distributes the 3% over each progressive pot you would maybe need more than one to gain your 3% back of the progressive part your funding.

I hope that helps.
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#26 nails

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:21 PM

whats happened to when u can play machines and get your moneys worth, ive been playing on jackpot party and made 5 deposits since friday and not a sausage got a bonus which only played out 60p put a complaint in and they just said deposit more money? why do they do that trying to egg u on to gamble more


i would send that email to the gaming commision, as enticement is illegal.

#27 Chopaholic

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:22 PM

Ok It will be something like this

I bet it will all be mathmatically relative:-

Lets just say for example the bloke who had a few at £15 a spin was up against a 750 spins ave chance of hitting a progressive which if he hit 5 in an eve is realistic. eg ( 3750 spins )

Someone on say 50p stake would only hit one 1 in 30 times less that than ( on ave of course! ) so their ave to hit one progressive is 1 in 22,500 spins so very believeable that they wouldnt get a trigger.

Someone on say 25p stake would be 1 in 60 times = 45,000 to 1 as each spin will still have that chance to hit its purely a case of having to be very lucky indeed at lower stakes.

As for your comment about the 3% yes your right low stakes players will technically be losing the 3% unless they hit at least 1 progressive, and depending how it distributes the 3% over each progressive pot you would maybe need more than one to gain your 3% back of the progressive part your funding.

I hope that helps.


Thanks for that fruitman, they were pretty much the lines I was thinking along :)

Overall my feeling is that for low stakes players, you're going to see far closer to 92% return than 95% at Jackpot Party, because that 3% you're allegedly getting from the progressives is so vanishingly unlikely to come up that you may as well just write it off. And that's before you take into account the effect of the really big progressive values that eat into the short-middle term return as well.

To put it into perspective, according to my account page at Jackpot Party I have earned 1021 'points', you get 1 point for every £10 wagered, so I've wagered a total of £10,210 (!), all of it at stakes of between 20p and 40p. If we take an average stake of 30p that means I've done 34,033 spins, and in that time I've had three JPP features.

So in other words, off that data sample, playing at low stakes, you get a JPP feature every 11,344 spins. Not good.

However, that sample is (a) Not a large enough data set and (b) Skewed as I got three JPPs very early on, I suspect the real long term figure is far higher than that, possibly up to something as horrible 1:30,000 or even higher. In the realtime chat at Jackpot Party there are quite a few small stakes players who say they haven't seen a JPP feature in MONTHS of playing, and this is against a backdrop of high stakes players continually dropping the smaller JPPs, sometimes several times in the space of a few hours.

And all the time of course you're having to play the games at that horrible 92% to get a chance of triggering a JPP to see some of the 3% you're allegedly getting back off the progressives.

The more I think about it the less I want to have another crack at the Double Your Play promotion next week - 100% match up to a maximum of £200, with a 20x wagering requirement, so a £200 deposit gives £400 to play with but £4000 wagering before a withdrawal can be made. If you do the maths you should meet the wagering requirements at a 95% return and still get your £200 back.

-----------------------
Deposit £200 to get the maximum £200 match-up bonus, so £400 to play with, but a £4000 wagering requirement before any withdrawal can be made.

£4000 = 400,000 pence

400,000 pence at 30p per spin = 13333 spins required to meet the wagering requirements

At 95% average return each 30p spin 'costs' 1.5p (5% of 30 is 1.5)

£400 = 40,000 pence, so should 'buy' 26,666 spins (40,000 divided by 1.5)

26,666 spins x 30p = £7999 wagered

AVERAGE luck should therefore meet the wagering requirements with the original £200 deposit intact and available for withdrawal.

--------------------------

The problem with the sums I did there is it assumes a 95% return, and to my mind the progressives just can't be relied on to show up. Knock those numbers down to 92%, and a it's a wipe out before the wagering requirements are met.

Maybe I'll just put £50 into 32Red and play some of their lower variance games at low stakes and get a decent run for my money instead :D

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#28 Chopaholic

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:35 PM

As you rightly say, I'd also rather play a game at 95% all of the time, or be able to opt out of the JPP and have the 3% go onto the game. You really do feel the suction at 92%.

This is why I don't like playing games with progressive jackpots, such as Alice's Wonderland and Viz - you can't be sure how much of your stake is funding the pot and it's such a rare event that the short-term player gets an inferior experience. If I log on in the evening and play Leprechaun's Luck I'm not playing for the progressive jackpot, I want a decent game for an hour, which most of the time I won't get. It's this short-term skew that makes me wish the progressive jackpot wasn't there.


Is there anywhere you like to play in particular steve?

I'm basically after a decent run for my money playing low stakes, with the chance to hit a decent win. You know, in the way AWPs were once actually entertaining!

I tend to stick to the lower variance machines but if I'd had a decent run on them I'll sometimes switch to a higher variance machine for the chance of a bigger win (or just exhausting my bankroll).

Generally speaking I'll only deposit £50-£100 for an evening's play and I never re-deposit once it's gone, and I like to get some decent entertainment out of it.

I've found the Microgaming casinos to be good in the past, although I've had a dabble with Sky Vegas and Kerching too. Most recently Jackpot Party of course but I don't think their progressive model is for me in the final analysis.

I also like match-up bonuses with reasonable wagering requirements (20x or less), as they extend the playtime whilst still leaving a reasonable chance of being able to at least get your deposit back out.

One thing I do like about Jackpot Party is they do a 'Double Your Play' promotion once a month (as mentioned above), although they're the only site I can recall that does that instead of just a one-time sign up offer.

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#29 playstephen24

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:39 AM

ive spoken 2 a manager there and he wasnt interested in my company he kept trying to get me 2 deposit more i ask 4 my account to be closed they r refusing so ive blocked the site on my internet explorer and sign the form to get my money bck has any 1 got the email address to the gaming commision

#30 James

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

ive spoken 2 a manager there and he wasnt interested in my company he kept trying to get me 2 deposit more i ask 4 my account to be closed they r refusing so ive blocked the site on my internet explorer and sign the form to get my money bck has any 1 got the email address to the gaming commision


I'm assuming gambling commision and gaming commision are the same?
If so here you go.
Email: info@gamblingcommission.gov.uk

#31 ady

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:16 PM

i would send that email to the gaming commision, as enticement is illegal.

I'm assuming gambling commision and gaming commision are the same?
If so here you go.
Email: info@gamblingcommission.gov.uk


Wait One, have all the T&C's been read?

Possible and most likely is the "deposit more" refers to the qualifying amount need to be made.

A lot of sites (as we know) give carrots.

I'd ask for an email to clarify before any complaint is made, if they refuse to highlight then proceed.

Hearsay won't ever hold up in any judgement! (we didn't see the full email content).

#32 Chopaholic

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:25 PM

As I'm a bit brassed off with Jackpot Party at the moment, I've decided to chuck my £100 Friday night slotting money at 32Red, and have a go at the Lord Of The Rings progressive slot.

The interesting thing here is that whilst they still have the same 'your chances of getting the progressive increase with stake' statement, the absolute maximum you can stake per spin is £6, and the minimum is 30p.

That means that the maximum variance between stakes is 20x (30p versus 600p), as opposed to the crazy situation at Jackpot Party where you can literally have people playing 20p per spin and people playing £200 (20,000p) per spin, which is a massive 1000X variance in stakes and thus a huge variance in the probability of triggering a progressive feature, whereby the low stakes player gets f***ed.

Have to say that Microgaming's production values are still second-to-none, the LOTR Progressive game itself is an incredibly slick affair. £35 down at the moment but already been playing for an hour and hit a couple of free spins features, and Gollum keeps turning up to do his silly stuff.

I feel like I'm getting some entertainment for my cash, which is the main thing.

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#33 Magz

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:51 PM

As I'm a bit brassed off with Jackpot Party at the moment, I've decided to chuck my £100 Friday night slotting money at 32Red, and have a go at the Lord Of The Rings progressive slot.


I remember how gutted I used to get losing £10-£20. Reading this thread makes me really glad I don't throw my cash away anymore... (well, on the fruities anyway)...

#34 mrsdoyle

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:58 AM

I play regularly at Jackpoyjoy, loads of different slots with many different stakes available from 1p upwards. Loads of slots without progressive jackpots and some with great "free spins" bonuses. Even the progressive slots have their own separate jackpots so you have the same chance of winning it as everyone else playing at that same stake. One of the penny ones (20 lines so 20p play) hits the £30,000 mark on a regular basis. OK, so the 40p per line pot has been won at over a million quid but that's the choice you make when you play these games, to win 40 times the lowest pot value you should expect to stake 40 times the amount to play. Skyvegas is OK because it carries the branded games you get in the bookies but these are available on quite a few sites these days.

Reading some of the comments on this thread just makes the saying "if you don't like losing, you shouldn't be playing" truer than ever. Somebody wins on these sites but it's not always going to be you!

#35 Chopaholic

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:20 AM

Reading some of the comments on this thread just makes the saying "if you don't like losing, you shouldn't be playing" truer than ever. Somebody wins on these sites but it's not always going to be you!


Personally speaking it's not the losing that bothers me, when I deposit money into an online casino I basically write it off and have the expectation of losing. Everyone knows the odds are in the casino's favour and I entirely accept that, and I never piss and moan when my deposit runs out, and I never re-deposit to chase losses. I see online slots as a bit of fun and a nice way to unwind of an evening once everything's taken care of.

My specific problem with Jackpot Party's progressive model (and a couple of other posters here have reached the same conclusion that I have) is that ALL players, irrespective of stake, HAVE to give 3% of their wagers over to the progressives at all times. With the chance of triggering the JPP feature being linked to stake, the net result of this is that low stakes players are effectively feeding 3% of their wagers to the high stakes players for them to continually drain out of the 0-1-2 progressive prizes.

That being the case, I've simply voted with my feet and gone back to playing at 32Red. Although I may investigate JackpotJoy :)

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#36 vectra666

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

it,s a bit like the £70ers in the real world, quid a go 70spins = £70 jpot say, where as 25p a po it,ll take you 280spins so in theory you could still get the jackpot party prog jackpot (like ruki did on 30p play)just it,ll take longer for the required amount to go in. Went on there last night and a bloke called AFC...... had prog jp game approx 7x,s but he was playing at £15 a spin, now in my eyes thats far to much to gamble in approx 10seconds per spin but thats his choice anyways i played "wizard of oz" and had a glinda feature gave me 4x wilds totalling more than £135 not bad off of a 30p stake £10 deposit at almost 500x,s the stake. Online slots are the same as real ones they,ll ALL skank you in the end only difference online ones you normally lose quicker
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#37 Chopaholic

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:39 PM

it,s a bit like the £70ers in the real world, quid a go 70spins = £70 jpot say, where as 25p a po it,ll take you 280spins so in theory you could still get the jackpot party prog jackpot (like ruki did on 30p play)just it,ll take longer for the required amount to go in. Went on there last night and a bloke called AFC......


The problem with that analogy is that on a £70 AWP, there's no one else playing the same machine at the same time as you, and competing for the same prizes as you.

The Jackpot Party system is more like you're playing a £70AWP on a 25p stake, but at the same time there's someone else playing the same machine on a £1 stake, and creaming off the prizes that your lower stake is contributing to.

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#38 Chopaholic

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

f*****g hell that didn't last long :D

The maximum bonus on the Double Your Play promotion is now £25 instead of £200!

Oh well, I'd pretty much made the decision to stop playing at Jackpot Party, and that seals the deal.

http://www.jackpotpa...Play-Terms.aspx

A 100% match bonus will be awarded on your first deposit only in the last full week of each month. For example a deposit of £10 made between 00:00:00 Monday and 23:59:59 Sunday (UK time) during the last week of the calendar month every month would generate a £10 bonus, additional deposits do not qualify. The maximum bonus is £25. Jackpot Party retains the rights to change the Double Your Play promotion at anytime.


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#39 stevedude2

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:09 PM

I've spent a few hours at work this week playing on Jackpot Party, and won the Confetti Progressive once. It's easy to see what's going on with the JPP Bonus. The more you stake the better chance you have of triggering it, and the awards in the feature and the average expected return is the same for everyone. There appears to be no advantage to staking at a higher level; you're still getting 92+3% no matter what happens, and everyone has the same chance of winning any of the star pots once they are in the feature.

Not a bad site, but as Chop said earlier in the thread when you're not getting the JPP the suction at the flat 92% can be felt quite easily.
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#40 Chopaholic

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:27 PM

I've spent a few hours at work this week playing on Jackpot Party, and won the Confetti Progressive once. It's easy to see what's going on with the JPP Bonus. The more you stake the better chance you have of triggering it, and the awards in the feature and the average expected return is the same for everyone. There appears to be no advantage to staking at a higher level; you're still getting 92+3% no matter what happens, and everyone has the same chance of winning any of the star pots once they are in the feature.

Not a bad site, but as Chop said earlier in the thread when you're not getting the JPP the suction at the flat 92% can be felt quite easily.


The problem with Jackpot Party is that if you're playing at the same time as a couple (or more) of high stakes players, and they've got the bankroll to play for as long as you're playing, they'll just continually mop up the small JPPs as their higher stakes give them a far better chance to hit the JPP on any given spin.

The fact that they're potentially losing loads and that the small JPPs are worthless to them doesn't make your own gameplay experience any better.

Chuck in high variance games like Bruce Lee into the mix, which can really sting on that low 92% return, and it's possible to have a pretty tawdry time.

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